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Podcast: Don't Despair, Jesus Can Rewrite Your Story (David Murray)

June 13, 2022 by: Crossway

This article is part of the The Crossway Podcast series.

How to View Our Own Stories

In today's episode, David Murray talks about why there’s more to our stories than what we can do or have done and how, in Christ, our stories can become part of God’s story—a story full of hope, and beauty, and grace.

The StoryChanger

The StoryChanger

David Murray

David Murray introduces readers to the StoryChanger, Jesus Christ—the only one who can rewrite human stories with his better Story—directing them to the stories of individuals in Scripture to see how their own messy stories can be transformed into stories worth telling.

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Check out other Crossway Podcasts including the new podcast Blessed: Conversations on the Book of Revelation with Nancy Guthrie.

Topics Addressed in This Interview:

01:04 - “Everything Is Meaningless”

Matt Tully
David, thank you so much for joining me again on The Crossway Podcast.

David Murray
It’s great to be here, Matt. I’m looking forward to chatting with you about how the StoryChanger can change our story with his story.

Matt Tully
We’re going to jump into the complicated dynamics of our own stories of our lives and how God can make, and even remake, our stories to fit within his story. There is so much there and there are so many different facets to that—how we make sense of things that happen to us and how we tell ourselves the story of our own lives and where it’s all going. One person that you spend a lot of time focused on in your new book is King Solomon. I think he helps to illustrate some things about our lives and the way that we view our lives. Solomon is this great example of someone who tried everything that there was under the sun. He enjoyed all of the things that this life has to offer us, whether that’s wisdom or wealth or pleasure. All of that was at his fingertips, and yet he still concluded that life under the sun is ultimately meaningless. As a pastor and as a professor, how often do you hear people coming to you and expressing that same kind of realization, that their lives feel meaningless?

David Murray
I don’t think most people are as honest as King Solomon. I think that’s one of the things that Ecclesiastes really hits you with. It’s just its stark realism. It’s so authentic. The masks are off and he’s just pouring his heart out. He’s letting it all hang out, as they say today. That’s a very hard thing to do. I think he models it well for us there. But very few people actually get to that kind of stark honesty. Some do, and I believe that’s really the first step to changing our stories with God’s story, to admit as Solomon did that our story is messy. Our story is not what we set out to write. Our stories are looking like having a sad ending and is there anything we can do? When somebody comes to me with that, whether it’s in counseling or just by meeting them on an airplane or something, I always think, God’s at work here. For someone to actually admit, My story is a mess. I can’t change it. I’ve tried rewriting it and failed. Is there anyone who can help me?—that’s massive, and a huge evidence of hope that God’s at work.

Matt Tully
I think it’s so counterintuitive because when someone is at a spot where they’re ready to admit that and acknowledge that, that can seem like the lowest spot they could be in. And yet you’re saying that gives you hope.

David Murray
I think the pattern of the Bible is that God kills and makes alive. He wounds and he heals. He convicts and he converts. Therefore, yes, it can be like a really dark place to be and hopeless, but it can also go the other way. If God is in this, then he has a purpose in this. It’s to make people give up writing, to throw the keyboard away, hand over the pain, and say, I can’t do this. God, help me! That is the biggest moment of hope in anyone’s story. When I see somebody still trying, still working away, still trying another strategy and another new leaf and another chapter, I’m thinking, They’re not ready.

Matt Tully
You said that coming to that point—acknowledging the futility of what they’ve been trying—is really an expression of a deep honesty with themselves about their lives. I guess I wonder, Is it more common (at least today) that people don’t ever get to that? Not because they lack the courage to be that honest, but it almost feels like often today people maybe aren’t even taking the time to think deeply enough about their lives. They’re just so distracted and living for the here and now. They’re not thinking about these deeper questions about ultimate meaning and where they’re going. Do you find that’s the case today?

David Murray
Definitely. Distraction and diversion is one of the devil’s greatest tools. It’s interesting that in talking to some people recently in my own congregation who have come to faith, each story has had a time of enforced silence. It may have been through illness in a hospital, or things like even just being on vacation where there was no WiFi signal. Even just a few days of that seems to bring a new reality to life. I think also you’ve got the problem today of there are just so many things to try. The options are almost innumerable. It can take people many, many years to get through the vast range of possible paths to happiness. I think that, too, delays the moment of reckoning and humbling. To get people to be quiet for a time is rare. I think that’s where church comes in. If somebody’s in church it’s like an hour or so of enforced focus, which is almost impossible to find today.

Matt Tully
I’ve also found for myself that it’s kind of well-known that our experiences of suffering and pain can often also wake us up to these deeper questions and ponderings. I even found for myself this terrible war in Ukraine right now—it’s not suffering that I’m experiencing personally, but it’s suffering and pain and evil on display in such a scale that it has even prompted my own thinking, Wow. There must be more to this life and to this world than what is here. Have you found that to also be a powerful wake up call for people?

David Murray
It’s horrendous, Matt. There’s no question that it’s disturbing us. We’ve never had this level of exposure in our lifetime to such sustained, deliberate evil. We’ve had one-offs like 9/11, but this is a full nation-state that was part of the civilized world that has begun a campaign of unprecedented barbarity and cruelty. We’re seeing it live, not just even in the daily news; but hour by hour, minute by minute. There are people recording it, and not just news organizations. I think it does make people think, Is that who we are? Is that how quickly we can go from civilization to barbarity? Were these people who were living normally just a few weeks ago and now they are torturing and raping and slaughtering? Yes, they are. That’s what we all are capable are, not just Russians. I think it is forcing people to think about the story of the world—its sadness, its pain. Then you look at your own life and you wonder about your connection to evil like that and ask, Am I capable of that? It’s very searching.

Matt Tully
When you think about your own life, have you ever been in a spot personally where you were questioning the point of it all, questioning the ultimate meaning in your life and wondering, Is there anything more to this?

David Murray
Definitely, Matt. In fact, in The StoryChanger I go through a number of chapters on how God changes our story with his story. I decided what better way to actually demonstrate that than to tell how God has changed my story with his story? I decided to be as vulnerable as I’ve ever been. I think when I wrote Reset I thought I had pushed the boundaries of admitting my weaknesses and frailties and follies, but I think also I held some things back that I realized, If I’m to be really honest like Solomon and just be totally frank, then I need to go further. I’ve seen how it’s helped people who have read Reset, and I believe and hope it will help people to just be honest and truthful. I’m not going into gory details of my past, but I was raised in a Christian home, but very much abandoned it in my late teens and early twenties. Then, maybe five or six years into my trying to write my own story of happiness, really it was a very sad number of chapters, and very destructive—of myself and, sadly, others too. God brought me to a point—in fact, I remember repeatedly that I would be going out on Friday nights with my friends on the town, and at least five or six times I would end up on the steps outside of various nightclubs in Glasgow just weeping. My friends would come out and say, What is wrong with you? Get back in the party. Do you not know who’s here? There were fairly well-known people we used to mix with in Glasgow in Scotland. I was just miserable. I would go home and I would promise God, Never again. I wasn’t seeking him, but I knew this life was sickening, and disgusting to him as well as to me. Another few instances happened that just brought me to rock bottom. Just seeing where my life was going, and maybe the stories of others’ lives as well also affected me. I had a boss who killed a six-month-old child in a drunk driving accident and went to prison for many years. Just seeing how that could be my story and wondering, Where’s my story ending? Is it going to be this kind of ending? I didn’t know what was happening at the time, but looking back I know it was God intervening. God was trying to wrench that pen (there were no keyboards then) out of my hand and saying, I can do much better than you. Are you ever going to give up?

12:28 - Our Inner Story

Matt Tully
That brings up this topic of our own stories and how they fit into God’s story. You mention in the book this idea of our inner story, the story that we tell ourselves about ourselves. Sometimes, in many ways and without even realizing it, we’re not consciously always narrating this story to ourselves. And yet it’s there, always kind of running in the background. I wonder if you could unpack that idea of an inner story a little bit more.

David Murray
I think there are in any book a number of narratives going on with different characters. There’s a surface story, there’s an inner story, there’s a relational story. Skillful authors are weaving different plot lines throughout. I think in our own stories there is, yes, an outer story which most people can read, at least largely. Yet there’s also an inner story—what story we’re telling ourselves about ourselves, about our world and our place in it, about our relationship to God. There’s a story we’re telling ourselves about our identity—our past, our present, and our future. It’s a story that we’re not often aware of. We’re very aware of the story that is visible and outward, but because that inner story has been running so long, we’ve gotten so used to it we hardly consciously hear it. And yet it is far more influential than our outer story. Therefore, it also needs to be changed and brought into contact with God’s story. In the book I give some examples of that, focusing mainly on Joshua and his inner narrative when he was confronted with the challenge of leading Israel into the promised land. His inner narrative apparently, from the the text of Scripture, would have appeared to have been, I’m very weak. I’m very scared. I don’t know what to do. I’m going to fail. I’m all alone. Of course, that was devastating to his leadership, to his model, to the people. It wasn’t good for him or the people. God comes into it with a new story—his story—to change that to, In God I’m strong, I can be fearless, I have a plan to follow, I will be successful, and he will be with me. You look at Joshua 1 and it’s just a beautiful example of how very simply and very briefly God comes with a few powerful words and changes Joshua’s inner story, and therefore changes his outer story too, and the story of Israel. Just that change in one narrative can have huge consequences for good and bad. Therefore, we want to use Joshua and others in Scripture as examples of helping us to pause and just reflect and ask ourselves, What story am I telling myself? Try and bring that subconscious narrative to the surface to our consciousness, and just think through, How is that affecting, influencing, and impacting me? What truths can I bring from God’s word to change that for the good?

Matt Tully
Help us understand what it looks like to bring that inner story to the surface for ourselves in order to better understand it. What are some questions that we could be asking ourselves to better understand that?

David Murray
One of the core areas and the most influential is really, Who am I?—my identity. Again, it’s not something we go around thinking, My identity is this everyday, but it’s there. Just write down on a piece of paper maybe, Who am I? What are the 5–10 things that come to mind. Don’t do it rightly. Don’t try to correct it as you go, but just let it go as if you were on pain of death and you had to get these ten things out in ten seconds. It’s so hard to be actually truthful with ourselves.

Matt Tully
Especially as Christians when we have a sense of the right answer. We know what we should be thinking and saying. I find that often for myself. It’s hard for me to even be honest not just with other people, but even with myself about what’s going on.

David Murray
Yes, very much so. Then, sort of challenge yourself. What other identities have others tried to impose upon us? It might be we’ve been raised by a father who continually told us, You’re a failure. You’re not good enough. Or maybe you’re a victim of abuse, and that abuse has made you think, I’m not worthy. I am dirty. I’m a victim. So, you go through your past and your present and just try to identify around ten statements that are going around and around and around in your head. Put them out in front of you, and we’re just trying to be as honest as we can with ourselves. It is best to do this alone. I think we’re more likely to be honest with ourselves when we do that. Then, as we expose ourselves to God’s word in general—like daily Bible reading—is rewriting our identity. It’s replacing what others have written upon our lives and in our lives by their actions and by their sins with God’s view of who we are in Christ and what identity he’s given us. I think a general, constant exposure to God’s word is having that rewriting affect. Often we’re not aware of that. It’s so gradual, it’s so gentle, but it’s happening. And then I think there are other times when, either in a sermon or in our own personal Bible reading, we’re just really hit between the eyes with a verse, a truth, a passage, a story, or a psalm that just clearly connects in a very conscious way with an error, a lie, or falsehood that has got a stronghold in our minds. God’s truth comes and pulls that down. I was just preparing a sermon this morning on 2 Corinthians 10—taking every thought captive. God’s breaking down of strongholds, replacing of our opinions with his own. Sometimes that can happen in a very vivid, unforgettable way. I don’t think that happens multiple times in our lives—like, hundreds of times. I think it’s more of a general washing with the word. But there are times, and we pray for them, that there will be significant, quantum leap changes, as it were, in our stories where we take a big advance in that new story God’s writing for us.

20:09 - When Our Inner Story Is One of Shame and Disappointment

Matt Tully
When it comes to these inner stories, I wonder if you could respond to two categories of inner stories that people might be telling themselves—maybe even someone listening right now. First, how would you respond to the person whose inner story is one of overwhelming shame and sadness, of disappointment of who they are? Maybe that’s because of things they’ve done or things that were done to them. Maybe, for this person, it’s hard to imagine how God could want to use their story, or maybe even be able to use their story, for good and to be part of his story? What would you say to that person?

David Murray
With somebody like that I often start with just general observations about them. I think it’s tempting to just plunge into God’s word and start bringing truth to them from God’s word. I prefer, personally, just to connect at a very human level first of all and listen to their story fully. Then, begin to challenge them a little bit like, Okay, you say no one loves you. Is that really true? I’ll often know something about their lives. Your husband loves you. Your daughter loves you. Your best friend who I know loves you. You say you’ve never done anything worthwhile in life. Well, I know that you passed an exam. I know that you hold down a good job. It’s really trying to help them take a different lens to their life that also allows some of the positives in. It just begins to turn their mind to say, Okay. Well, maybe I’m just reading the worst parts and I’m ignoring at least some good parts. I think if you can get a little piece of light in there it often opens up to the much more significant truths in God’s word.

Matt Tully
I wonder if someone listening might think, Why would you start there? Why wouldn’t you jump to those deep, theological, gospel truths that we hold dear, and that I know you hold dear? Why not start there and just open that wide up?

David Murray
I think Jesus often started there. I think of dealing with the woman at the well and how he just started with water and thirst and her life—her messy life—before he got to the water of life and rewriting her story and giving her another story to tell. I think it’s just human—as human as Jesus was—to start where people are. You’re beginning to open up the possibility of a new way of looking at life with easier truths, easier facts that are more verifiable, more visible, more tangible. But, of course, that doesn’t really ultimately help people. You have to get to the deeper truths. Again, if it’s somebody dealing with shame, I would go the woman at the well. At Easter weekend, my Good Friday sermon was on the thief at the cross. My Easter Sunday sermon was on Mary Magdalene. It’s fascinating that the last person he spoke to before his death and the first person he spoke to when he rose again were two of the most shameful characters, two of the most messed up lives. It’s like, can I make it any clearer that I’m interested in the stories of the worst and the least? These are the people that I’ve come for. We’re not lacking in examples of similar stories in the Bible. I think if we can tell these stories to people in such a way that they can make connecting points with them and, therefore, begin to give them hope like, Okay, their stories were bad, these people in the Bible. They stories were as bad, if not worse, than mine. Look at how Jesus dealt with them. Look how he changed their lives and their eternities. Therefore, there’s hope for me too.

24:51 - When Our Inner Story Is One of Self-Sufficiency

Matt Tully
I want to come back to that topic of how some of these Bible stories and Bible characters can serve as encouragement to us as we think about our own stories. But before we get into that, I wonder if you could speak to the opposite kind of person whose internal story is, I kind of like how my life is right now. I’m comfortable. I’m having fun. I’m not hurting anyone else. I don’t really need God. Maybe this is even and self-professed Christian who says, God is okay on the outskirts of my life, and I’m not that serious. That’s fine. Things feel good. What would you say to that person?

David Murray
It’s a harder person to speak to because there isn’t that evident need there. There’s a self-satisfaction and a self-sufficiency. It’s very rare, I think, that such a person will be brought to faith quickly. There’s more for them to go through, as it were. God can do it, but I think in general it’s going to be a longer conversation. My aim would be to, first of all, tell them the good news—the better story—in the hope that at least they’ll walk away with that, And when the time comes, as it inevitably will, when their story goes pear shaped, that they will have something to fall back on. I was watching some of the Ray Comfort videos at the weekend with my little son—

Matt Tully
For those who aren’t familiar with him, who is Ray Comfort?

David Murray
He runs an apologetic, evangelistic ministry called Living Waters. I’ve seen a lot of his, and some of them I’m a bit uncomfortable with, but in this one video he was talking to a woman on a pier who had just been passing. He started talking to her about the gospel, and he interestingly commented afterwards and said, Do you see how I didn’t talk to her about intellectual problems in her life with Christianity, but I spoke to her about moral problems in her life? He was very firmly of the view that the way to prepare people for listening to the intellectual story of God is to bring to them the moral story of God. In other words, until people know what they have done wrong and not done right, they’re not really going to look for a solution, or another story. It was fascinating to watch this woman just slowly succumb to his questions—kind, thoughtful, wise, loving questions. She clearly left the conversation with an openness to hear the gospel, which he did give to her later. So, I think that’s a great pattern to follow. We’re often tempted to really work on proofs for this and proofs for that and evidences and arguments, whereas the moral story and conscience is really where the gospel story begins.

28:20 - Does God Want Me to Be Miserable?

Matt Tully
That relates to something you write in your book. You talk about your own story, and you say, “The biggest and most influential lie that the villain”—by that you mean Satan, who you call the Story Shredder—“The biggest lie that he told me for twenty-two years was, ‘I want you to be happy, and God wants you to be miserable.’ He did this primarily by painting a sinful life as a good life, and a holy life as a grim life. I believed this lie, and it was ruining my life.” I think that’s the way that many of us, even as Christians, can sometimes view the life that God calls us to, the story that God calls us to partake of. That’s just so wrong, and yet we fall for it even as believers. Help us understand why we do that.

David Murray
I would definitely say the most common lie Satan tells people is that he wants us to be happy and God wants us to be miserable, and that a godly life is the most miserable life. What I did is what many do. I said, Well, I want to go to heaven, but I also want a happy life, so I might give God the last year—the last day if possible. But until then, I’m going to get as much happiness as I can get. I was doing some studies on Matthew Henry, the Puritan commentator and expositor of the Bible, and a theme that occurs throughout all of his writing is the happiness of the Christian life. I think we’ve lost a bit of that in Christian circles, at least more Reformed evangelical circles. I think it’s because of an overreaction to the Joel Osteen type—happy, happy, happy all the time, time, time! Those who say that all that Christianity is about is more happiness.

Matt Tully
Prosperity gospel.

David Murray
Prosperity gospel, yes. I think we’ve overreacted to that and we’re losing a major apologetic argument for the gospel, and that is that a holy life is generally a happier life. It’s not guaranteeing you a suffering-free life. Not at all. There will definitely come sufferings in the Christian life. But as Matthew Henry points out repeatedly, with sorrow also comes compensating joys that balance out, if not overbalance, the sorrows—even in the sorrows. I’m preaching a series in my own church called “The Ten Pleasures.” It’s on the Ten Commandments. When i initially set out on it, I though, I don’t know if I’m going to get to the end of this. I could easily see “no other gods before me.” Yeah, God alone being our delight and treasure and so on. But how can you portray these other moral laws of God as pleasures? Well, it’s been surprisingly easy. I think as well you look at the world and we’re seeing the opposite. The evidence that we can gather, even from secular sources, to show the misery of a life that disregards and disobeys God’s law is overwhelming. Even things like a rest day a week. You get multiple secular organizations now advocating for this. The Sabbath Manifesto, for example, is a secular organization. If you start going through the Bible looking for this, you see it everywhere that an obedient life is a happy life. Yes, it comes with sufferings, but we have completely lost, it seems at times, the joy of being a Christian, the joy of being saved, the joy of being adopted, even in the midst of some of the greatest sufferings. I’ve seen that as a pastor as well, the ability of the gospel to not just sustain, but to inspire, to give incredible joys in the midst of the deepest sadnesses. Even if there are days without any joy, joy does come. I think we want to really begin to defeat this story of the devil that the sinful life is the happy life and really argue hard against that and show from Scripture and from our own stories how a life following Christ is, in general, the happiest possible life.

Matt Tully
That’s such a good reminder for us. Even as Christians we can struggle with that. Let’s talk a little bit about the other side—the suffering and the pain that we will experience. That is part of life in a broken world. I actually came across an article that you wrote for Table Talk magazine a few years ago. In it you talk about the pain of failure and disappointment in this life. I think failure is one of those things, whether it’s our own failure or the failure of those closest to us or the failures of those that we followed and learned from and shaped us in some profound way and then disappointed us, that kind of failure can be one of those things that haunts us for years. It just sticks with us. You write in the article, “We live in a success culture that idolizes victory and fulfillment, but’s all so unreal. When we turn to the Bible, we’re given a deep dose of reality: failure and disappointment are on just about every page. Whether we like it or not, it’s much truer to life than the success narratives that we aspire to and are trying to write for ourselves.”

David Murray
I think, obviously, God gives us successes for our joy, but also uses failures and frustrations and disappointments for our good as well. And not just our spiritual good, but our psychological good. I’ve had numerous failures in my life, and sometimes I would have to admit that they have been very prominent in my story, and maybe even first. If somebody was to ask me, Who are you, David?, at times I would have said, I am a failure. I failed at business, I failed at pastoring, I failed exams, I failed in relationships. But while admitting that honestly, fully, frankly, I also look back and see how God used these failures, and is still using them to humble, to make me more dependent, to make me more sympathetic and less condemning to others who have failed, to be able to encourage others who have had their own falls and stumbles along the way. Therefore, I think the key is not to deny failure but to reframe it and to put a biblical frame of truth around them and show how they ultimately lead us to Christ for forgiveness, and to Christ to worship—the unfailing one, the one who has never failed. He managed to live a life here of thirty-three years in the midst of the worst suffering imaginable, and yet never failed—not once in his thinking, in his feeling, in his speaking, in his actions. The more you see your own failure, the more that perfection just overwhelms you with awe and admiration. I think that God can use the failed chapters in our stories to lead us again to his success chapters in Scripture—the ones especially written by Jesus.

Matt Tully
You mentioned in that quote the success culture that we live in that idolized victory and fulfillment. What would be an example of that that we maybe are swayed by?

David Murray
I love fishing. I was commenting to my wife last week after a fruitless day in the river—a fruitless day in the river, I should say—that it’s funny how I never see pictures on Facebook or Instagram of people with no fish. You’re tempted to think no one else goes fishing and comes home without fish, because the only time they take pictures—and the only time I take pictures!—is when I’ve got a fish to show. In a sense that’s a very down to earth example of the success culture. We only talk about our successes. Only successes are worthy of publication. Therefore, it conveys a very false message. If you just think on that fishing illustration, Everyone else catches fish when they go fishing. Then you move it to more serious things like, The only time you see people talking about their job is when they get a promotion. The only time you see people talking about their books is when they’ve sold thousands of copies. Therefore, clearly we are a success-oriented culture. It really is a false narrative. It’s not denying that our success is only half the story. We have to be much more honest about our lives. Again, I think that’s where church community comes in. We can be honest with one another. We don’t have to put on a show. We don’t have to just talk about our successes. If we want to be part of the book club, as I describe the church in this book, we want to come together and just be really honest about our stories, and share our successes and also our sorrows. Therefore, we rejoice with those who rejoice, but we weep with those who weep as well. We encourage one another onwards to keep writing, or to keep seeking God to write better stories for us.

38:46 - More Than a Happy Ending

Matt Tully
David, maybe as a final question, let’s talk about the end of our stories, or at least the end of our earthly stories. You write in the book, “Jesus offers us more than a happy ending.” How so?

David Murray
In a way he offers us an unending story—the never ending story. The end of our lives here on earth can be painful physically, and even painful spiritually. I’ve known Christians who have died in darkness without the great joy and assurance of where they are going. Yet we know that on the other side of that final earthly chapter, no matter how that ends, there is an endless story of joy, peace, life, and love. That story is the one that all our stories have to lead to. We do not want that other end, which is never ending death. Nobody’s story ever comes to an end; it’s everlasting. Yes, our earthly stories have an end at the grave, but our eternal stories are forever. Our eternal story is related to our earthly story, and it all depends on whether we have had our stories rewritten by God’s story, changed by God’s story. If we have, our eternal story will be well worth writing and living. If not, it’s an R-rated eternal story that cannot be changed. It’s beyond changing. That’s one of the passions behind the book. I really wanted for years to have a simple, short book that I could put in the hands of unbelievers and present Jesus in a way that maybe they had not heard before, as the StoryChanger, in a way they could relate to. There is a lot of talk about story these days in different contexts, even in marketing and business and psychology. I wanted to try and show how this is the only way to write a good story, and it’s by having the StoryChanger involved in their lives. I hope that the book will help Christians reframe their view of Jesus and the gospel, but one of my greatest passions is that it’s a book that Christians can give to non-Christians, and that it will draw them in and draw them to the StoryChanger so that their eternal stories will be far better—infinitely better than it will be without the StoryChanger.

Matt Tully
I think it’s such a helpful tool in that regard. So often in our circles we talk a lot about God’s story—God’s story of salvation and his story of the world. That’s right. There is an emphasis on God and what he is doing. But what I think you’ve done so helpfully is kept that emphasis at the center, but shown how that does intersect with our own stories in our lives and how we think about our lives—the arc that we see to our lives. That’s such a helpful, encouraging thing. Thank you, David, so much for taking the time today to talk with us.

David Murray
Thanks, Matt. It’s great to be with you again.

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