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Podcast: How Do I Discipline My Kids without Shaming Them? (Heather Nelson)

October 18, 2021 by: Crossway

This article is part of the The Crossway Podcast series.

Discipline without Shame

In today's episode, Heather Nelson—a writer, a counselor, and a mom—talks about what it looks like to pursue shame-free parenting so that we might have joy-filled homes.

Unashamed

Unashamed

Heather Nelson

This book shines the life-giving light of the gospel on the things that leave us feeling shame, directing our attention to the God who promises to forgive and restore us—no matter what.

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Topics Addressed in This Interview:

00:49 - What Is Shame-Free Parenting?

Matt Tully
Heather, thank you so much for joining me today on The Crossway Podcast.

Heather Nelson
It’s great to be here, Matt. Thanks for having me.

Matt Tully
We’re going to talk today about shame-free parenting. Before we jump in, there are so many different angles there that we would want to explore. How would you simply define that? What is shame-free parenting?

Heather Nelson
I would say you can look at it a couple of different ways. Shame-free parenting, from the perspective of the parent, is being able to parent in a way that doesn’t cause you shame. Like, Oh, I just yelled at my kids or I just said that thing I thought I would never say. I would say that shame-free parenting is parenting in a way that won’t bring you shame as a parent. It’s also, from a child’s perspective, parenting in a way that’s keeping them from getting stuck in these cycles of shame through the way that you’re parenting. And also, redemptively, it’s parenting in a way that’s different from what you experienced. It’s not repeating these cycles of shame that can get carried down generationally. So, that’s my long short answer of what shame-free parenting is.

Matt Tully
It’s so interesting that there are two dynamics. There’s the parent’s experience of shame and how we’re dealing with it as parents, and there’s also the experience of the struggle against shame that our kids experience as well. I want to explore both of those, but before we jump into that, it seems like another word that is often used—sometimes interchangeably—with shame is the word guilt. Help us understand the difference between shame and guilt. Are they mutually exclusive, overlapping, or something else?

Heather Nelson
If you picture a venn diagram of two overlapping circles where guilt is on one side and shame is on the other side, there is a brief place where they overlap. I’ll talk about that in just a moment, but for the most part, they are two separate entities. Guilt, as I define it, is related to the feelings you have after you have sinned. Ultimately, every sin is against God, so you’ve done something wrong and you feel guilty afterwards. The way to get rid of that guilt is asking for forgiveness and admitting your wrongdoing and repenting. Then, guilt goes away. Shame can feel like guilt—maybe that’s where the shame and the guilt kind of intertwine. Sometimes what begins as guilt can morph into shame. Shame is something larger than just, I did something wrong, and I feel badly about it. Shame is, I am wrong. I am defined by the bad thing that I did—and this is expanded from guilt—I am defined by the bad thing that someone did to me. Shame can be a result of other people’s sin against you as well. That’s where it’s really important to separate out what is guilt and what is shame. Guilt is a spiritually healthy response to sin that we want to have both for ourselves and our children, whereas shame is not. Shame is the kingdom of darkness reigning, really. Shame is what keeps you from coming into the light with the things you’ve done wrong or the things that have been done against you.

Matt Tully
You work as a counselor by trade. Do you often see people confusing guilt and shame when you talk with them?

Heather Nelson
All of the time. That usually becomes this huge Aha! moment when I talk about, Oh, wait a second. You just said you feel guilty about some abuse that happened in your life. That’s not guilt. That is shame. That’s the other person trying to put their guilt on you. So, I’ll see that kind of thing. Or, You’re saying you feel guilty about not spending enough time with your kids. Well, you have a full-time job and all of these other responsibilities. Is that truly guilt? Or is that shame that you’re not living up to your own expectations or the culture’s expectations of you? I think that begins to be really important to make that distinction. But most people, I think, view it interchangeably.

Matt Tully
It seems like a big part of shame, as distinct from guilt, is that shame is a way that we view ourselves or our identity, rather than the way we view something that we said or did or a sinful behavior that we had. Is that a fair way to distinguish the two?

Heather Nelson
Absolutely. I think shame is essentially an identity question, and that’s what makes it so big and so hard sometimes to wrap your head around or deal with in your life.

06:14 - The Shame Cycle

Matt Tully
You said something earlier that I thought was an interesting phrase. You said that there is often this shame cycle. What does that cycle look like? Unpack that for us.

Heather Nelson
It can be generational, or it can be in someone’s life. I’ll start with the individual, and I’m just going to go ahead and say how it might show up in parenting. Let’s say my kid does something they’re not supposed to do. I correct them, but I correct them in anger—sinful anger—and maybe in front of a lot of people, because underneath all of that I’m feeling ashamed that my child acted in such a way. So, I’m feeling embarrassed; I’m feeling like I haven’t met the mark. So, then my response to my child because this very shaming response of, Why did you do this? You’re so terrible! Maybe I’m not saying those exact words, but that message is coming across loud and clear. And then afterwards, there’s guilt for what I’ve just said, and then there’s shame along with the guilt of, Yup. This is what I always do. I did it again. That becomes this shame cycle of the next time it happens, the shame is going to make me feel like, Well, I’m a bad parent anyway, so I might as well just keep doing what I’m doing because nothing can change. Generationally, it’s easy to see how that can play itself out. The child who has been shamed by their parents will then feel, This is the way I’m supposed to parent. Maybe the only way to make my parents happy is to also shame my children. So, it just becomes this terrible, destructive cycle.

Matt Tully
It sounds like for both the parent and child in that example, a part of the shame is this feeling of powerlessness, or the feeling of inability to actually change things or change themselves. Is that part of shame? Is that an effect of shame that often happens?

Heather Nelson
Absolutely. I think both of those things can go together. I think it could be both an effect of shame and what causes it. You feel like there’s no other option than doing this. Like, this is the only way that I can get some power back. And, of course, it’s the opposite effect, and it does create a sense of powerlessness and also paralysis in some way—emotional paralysis of, I’m just stuck here. We’re both stuck in this awful moment that seems to go on forever.

Matt Tully
I’m sure every parent listening right now, whether that exact situation has happened or maybe something like that, we all feel a little sense of, Yeah, I’ve been there. I’ve done something like that before with my kids. Have you ever personally experienced that struggle with shame in your own life? Did it end up leading to something with your kids?

Heather Nelson
No, I am the perfect parent, so that’s why I chose to write about this. No, not at all. It is something that I definitely, very early on, experienced with the twins. When they were about eighteen months or two years old, they began going in opposite directions, and often getting in trouble at the same time in opposite directions. My response as the calm, collected parent was to just totally lose it many times a day. I kind of unleashed in anger—in very sinful anger at them. Often, again, this was stemming from my sense of shame that I need to get control of my kids. I’m out of control, so I’m acting in a way that is out of control and that’s very shaming. Then, the cycle would be that I would yell at them, and then immediately I would feel terrible but not really know what to do. I would feel paralyzed in that moment. Shame begins to set in and it just made me more likely to deal with them in an unhelpful way the next time. So yes, this is definitely something I have struggled with and continue to struggle with.

Matt Tully
Was there an element that was surprising to you about that struggle? Did you realize that was something that you would struggle with before you had kids?

Heather Nelson
I never saw myself as an angry person until I had children. I pictured myself as being the perfectly delighting parent who would take joy in my children every step of the way. For sure, I do enjoy my children and have taken joy in them, but I never pictured losing it in anger as something that would be part of my story and part of my struggle. It was very surprising for me to see my own heart react.

Matt Tully
It seems like that’s a common experience for many parents, myself included, is you learn things about yourself—often it’s things that are hard to admit—through parenting. Why do you think that is? Why is it that there are often so many things that we are unaware of or maybe just unwilling to face about ourselves that parenting brings to light?

Heather Nelson
I think with parenting, your selfishness is just all of a sudden non-negotiable. In marriage, that’s one level of, Okay, I’m beginning to see some of my selfishness here and some of my sinful patterns. But you’re dealing with another adult, so you both can still negotiate around your selfishness. Like, Well, I want to go to the beach today and you want to go to the mountains tomorrow. We’ll do the beach this weekend and the mountains next weekend. Okay, great. Both of us are pretty happy with the outcome. With children, they come in like a freight train and it’s not a question of, Let me negotiate when you need to be fed tonight. No, they are coming in literally screaming their needs to you. Your resistance just comes out in full force. I think parenting really unmasks the sinfulness of our own hearts and pushes us to places where, ultimately, you have to learn to depend on Jesus in a whole new way, or try to develop some really good and probably unhelpful coping mechanisms.

13:04 - Shame and Mom Culture

Matt Tully
Shame as a parent is something that both men and women—dads and moms—experience and struggle with to different extents, but you do talk in your book about the powerful message of shame that almost every mother wrestles with in particular. Have you observed—in your counseling work or even in your own life—that especially difficult dynamic of shame that moms in particular struggle with?

Heather Nelson
I think as a mom, there’s this mom culture—and every mother who’s listening right now knows what I’m talking about. There’s the mom culture of do my kids eat enough organic food? Are they home schooled or are they in public school? Are they at Christian school or are they at private school? Are they sleeping enough? Am I sleep training them or am I letting them figure their own way out? So there’s all these different issues and it becomes the "mommy wars," which is another way of saying it. There’s an expectation and pressure that I think we’ve tended to put on ourselves and assume from the people around us that I have to be the perfect parent and I have to prove myself, in particular, as a mom. I have to show that I can do it all, have it all, be it all for my children, whether I’m a working mom, a stay at home mom, or some combination of the two. There’s an equal set of expectations almost anywhere you look. I think we as moms have not tended to be the most kind towards one another. I do see that shifting. I think there’s a great movement toward being real and being honest, and inviting that same response in others and saying, We’re all doing the best that we can. I think every mom is having to combat with this huge shame message of, You’re not enough.

Matt Tully
Obviously, depending on someone’s context and the type of church or type of community they’re in, maybe some of those expectations will differ. Could you explain a little bit more how those expectations are forced upon moms? What are ways that actually is pressed on people in their lives?

Heather Nelson
That’s a really good question. I definitely think church and family culture can be huge, and it can be as simple as, Well, this is the way it’s always been done. For example, I come from a family of women who have always stayed at home with their children, so for me to not stay home full time with my children, wow! That’s breaking the mold in some ways. Or, it could be the opposite. I’ve had friends who have said, My mom was a very successful doctor and she wonders why I’m not using my college degree in the same way that she did and why I’m at home full time with my children. Sometimes it’s simply the example. Or, maybe you go to a church where almost everyone is homeschooling, and you’re the one who has decided to send your kids to public school. So it’s just that pressure of, I’m different—or that becomes a pressure. I think a mom can feel like she has to explain when she’s choosing differently than the people immediately surrounding her.

Matt Tully
Speak to the mom listening right now from two angles. What can she do to personally guard herself against these feelings of shame that are sometimes pressed upon her from the outside, or maybe that she presses upon herself? Then, on the other side, what can she do to help other moms not feel the shame that sometimes they can feel because of their decisions?

Heather Nelson
There was a woman who spoke as part of a parenting class at my church when my kids were really young, and she said, You are the expert on your children. I felt like that was incredibly freeing to really think about that. I am the expert on my children; no one else is called to be the mom of my children. Neither am I called to be the mom of other people’s children. I think if we’re able to take that truth to heart, that my children are a gift given to me by the Lord and he’s going to give me the wisdom to make the decisions that are best for them. So really, it’s about trying to quiet the other voices. Sometimes that looks like stopping reading all the blogs or the parenting books. There have been times in my own life where I just had to stop reading parenting books because every parenting book had a different opinion about whatever the issue was that was addressed, and it was confusing me. There is certainly a great place for parenting books to help inform, but to some degree and at some point you have to decide this is what’s right for our family moving forward. I think if you’re focused on that, I think that really helps you to have some security and freedom from shame, if you’re convinced this is what’s best for my family and for my children. Out of that security, you’re then able to offer freedom to the people around you. Even being able to say and admit—if you’re having the parenting advice conversation with other moms—being able to throw in there, This is what worked for my kids, but your kids might be different. I think just even that phrase would go a long way to really reducing some of the shame that we tend to exert on other people. And not being quick to offer advice to other moms. I think, particularly, when you’re a new mom (and I’m thinking about when I was a new mom) it can be easy to jump in with other new moms and say, Well, if you just did this, this would help with your children. I have to say, that really drove me crazy because as a mom of twins, I had two kids who had really different needs—often mutually exclusive needs at the same time—so I was seeing from the get go that what’s working for one isn’t working for the other. I found some comfort in talking with parents of multiple children because you essentially realize, I thought I was doing really great with child A, and then child B came around and I did the same thing, and child B didn’t respond the same way. So, I think having a little bit of humor and levity and also just respecting the fact that my kids are different than your kids, your background is different than my background, and I’m going to love and support you as a mom because what’s common is that this is hard work. Whatever you’re doing, however you’re doing it, this is hard and we’re in it together.

Matt Tully
As we wrestle with our own sinful hearts as parents, including our own shame, we can then sometimes contribute to our kid’s shame. Can you unpack how that sometimes happens?

Heather Nelson
I think it can often happen when we don’t know ourselves and we don’t know our children and we’re not being careful and thoughtful. So often I think it can be those impulse responses like the example I gave earlier of you’re in a crowded place, you’re surrounded by family, your kid acts out in a way that is completely shaming to you (or embarrassing), and so you snap and say, Okay, stop right now! Shame is telling you, Do whatever it takes to get out of this situation. It doesn’t matter what the damage is. I think the times that I’ve been able to just step aside and first calm myself down and take a minute and think, Okay, what would it look like to lovingly interact with my child, and what does my child need in this moment? Maybe they feel embarrassed too. Nine times out of ten, being able to pull your child aside and take a little extra time is going to yield much better results than the shame exacerbation of that moment.

22:06 - Shame-Laden vs. Shame-Resilient Words

Matt Tully
When it comes to parents and how they interact with their kids, you draw a contrast between shame-laden words vs. shame-resilient words. Unpack that contrast. What would be some examples of those two different kinds of words?

Heather Nelson
I think shame-laden words would be something like, Why do you always do this? It could be true. It could be totally true that your child always does whatever it is. That would be a shame-laden word because that is sinking deep into their identity, that this is something they always do and they can’t escape it. Shame-resilient words, for the same situation, would be, Well, it looks like you spilled the crayons on the floor again—and the markers, and the paint. What can we do to help clean it up? In that, you’re identifying a specific action and you’re also giving your child the opportunity to help you make it right. I think another example is any time you use an identity statement like, You are so naughty. You are so bad. You are so disobedient—all of those are shame-laden words because they’re identity. They’re going straight to the child. You’re describing every part of them as whatever this is. A shame-resilient word would be, again, separating out what they did from who they are. And also, just trying to focus on the things that they do that are good. You may not be able to focus on that in the moment, but trying to take this big picture look of what are some things your child does really well, and how can you encourage them in that?

Matt Tully
What would you say to the parent listening right now who says, Those distinctions between shame-laden and shame-resilient words—does that really matter? Does that really make that big of a difference? If my kid is being naughty, I should be able to say, ’Don’t be naughty. You’re being naughty’. What would you say to that kind of response?

Heather Nelson
I would say sure, if it happens a couple of times. Again, I’m not saying that I’ve never said these things to my children. There have been moments where I say, You are being so bossy. You’re being so disobedient. But I think if the general pattern becomes that your child is always hearing these identity words from you, that sinks in. It sinks into a little kids heart. In some place, they begin to form this opinion of themselves that says, I am bad. I am wrong. I am naughty, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I’m naughty all the time, why not be naughty? That becomes, obviously, counter productive to what we’re trying to do as parents. So, practically, it’s just not a good strategy. Then, in terms of looking at the kid’s heart, it’s building in them this identity of shame. The difference between these identity statements vs. action statements where you’re pointing out here’s what happened and here’s how we make it right, that actually is more informative to your child, too, than just, You’re being naughty. What did I do that was naughty? Was it this action or was it that action? Was it the fact that I finished eating or the fact that I threw my plate on the floor? Which one was it? We would hope our children would know the difference, but when they’re young especially, they don’t always know. They may not know what it was that they did, so being able to say, When you threw the plate on the floor, that wasn’t okay. There’s going to be a consequence, and let’s talk about it. In the future, I expect you not to do that. Being able to have these high expectations for your kids and really helping them live into that as well.

26:10 - How Do I Teach My Kids about Their Own Sinfulness?

Matt Tully
Something I’ve wondered and had to think through a little bit in my own parenting with my kids is what does it look like to teach my kids about their own sinfulness? The fact is that their sin is deep within their hearts and is something that they are born with and affects everything about them, but how do I do that in a way that doesn’t lead to unhealthy shame and making them feel like their identity is fully wrapped up in their sinfulness? Do you have any guidance you would offer to parents on walking that line?

Heather Nelson
The first thing I would say is that it’s something my husband and I struggle with everyday. How do we shepherd our children redemptively, acknowledging the depth of their sinfulness and also acknowledging the depth of God’s grace and his redemption and their ultimate destiny? Their fulfilled redeemed destiny is going to be as glorious fellow children of the father with me and my husband. So, I think it's having to keep both of those things in mind. There’s this phrase that says we’re simultaneously saint and sinner. How do we do that in parenting? I think the fact that we will do that in parenting and that we’re trying to do that in parenting, that’s what is going to lead to redemption for them. I think there’s developmental answers as well. When your kids are young, they do need to be taught right from wrong, and so you’re probably going to dwell a lot more on, There’s sin living inside of you. What you naturally choose is often going to be what’s selfish and what’s sinful. Then, as they’re getting older and getting a sense of the law of God, that there are rights and there are wrongs in the world and I have a choice about whether or not I’m going to do what’s right or wrong. And I think as they get older, teaching them that your sinfulness is not the end of the story. You can never live up to God’s law perfectly, and neither can I. I think being able to bring yourself into the picture with them and say, I have sin living within me as well, but God is redeeming me, and he has promised to redeem you as well through faith in Jesus Christ. Being able to really teach them about this redeemed identity, as a chosen, beloved daughter or son of God through faith in Christ—I think that begins to give hope to combat that sinful nature.

Matt Tully
When it comes to highlighting your child’s needs for the gospel and hope in the gospel, how valuable is it to bring yourself into that picture as a parent and talk about your own need for the gospel?

Heather Nelson
I think it’s essential. I think it really helps to show the child a real life, incarnational picture of what redemption looks like. In those early days of parenting when I would lose it in anger at my wayward twin toddlers, I would come back—and they may not remember this from that time, but I have lost it in anger since then, so I’m sure they will have many recent memories of this—I would come back to them and say, Girls, mommy messed up. I sinned, and I need Jesus. I shouldn’t have yelled at you. I need your forgiveness and I need God’s forgiveness. If you’re able to do that in developmentally appropriate ways all throughout your child’s life, it really does paint a picture of you as a fellow journeyer, because that’s what we are ultimately. We’re fellow journeyers on this pathway of life towards redemption and towards perfection, which we won’t arrive at until heaven. It helps you to be approachable and it helps you to really show empathy. When I’m talking to a friend about a struggle, it’s really different when they can respond with, Oh yeah, I’ve been there too. There’s a whole different level of intimacy there and just of conversation that can happen and freedom.

Matt Tully
I’ve talked with other parents who, for many of them, that comes somewhat naturally to them and they feel that desire to confess their sin appropriately to their own kids and apologize to their kids when they need to. But then for other parents, maybe they just never saw that modeled by their own parents, so just the thought of doing that feels very foreign and awkward. It doesn’t come naturally at all. What word of encouragement would you give to a parent who feels like that and says, I see what you’re saying (that I should do this), but it’s just very hard for me to do that?

Heather Nelson
Start small. It’s okay if it feels awkward. Some of the best things in life feel awkward at the beginning. Practice will make it easier, but there’s no shortcut either. You can’t say, Well, in five years I’ll start then. No, start today, and as God shows you some of your sin and the way that you’re interacting with your kids or with your spouse, if you have to script it out first before you talk to your kids, that’s fine. Or maybe it’s easier to write your kids a letter or a note saying, I’m sorry that I yelled at you this morning. Will you forgive me? Maybe that would feel less awkward. Start there. Start small, and ask God for opportunities to practice. I’m sure he’ll be glad to give them to you. Realize that even though it’s awkward, it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t do it, and it will get easier with time.

Matt Tully
It’s always a scary thing to ask God for opportunities to grow in some way because he often does it! In your book you offer some self-assessment questions aimed at helping us as parents to understand or see whether or not shame is too prevalent in our homes, too dominant of a thing. What are some of those questions that you think it would be helpful for parents to ask?

Heather Nelson
A few things that I mention in the book that I would go over again is asking yourself how often you delight in your child. If you’re delighting in your child, then you know that those moments are without shame and that that’s creating this really strong connection between you and your child. If you have a hard time remembering the last time you just enjoyed your child, it might be shame is at play more than what you think, or it might be that this is an opportunity to just grow in knowing your child. Another question that I ask that we’ve touched on is whether you’re disciplining your child publicly or privately. I think this is crucial to really minimizing shame. There is going to be guilt with discipline, and there is probably going to be some level of shame as well, but if you're able to do things privately instead of publicly, I think that really helps with minimizing it. I think also, along with that when you’re disciplining your child, if you are able to affirm your love to them before, during, and after the moment of discipline. Even if they don’t believe your words, if you’re able to say, I love you, and it’s because I love you that I’m doing this, and then afterwards being able to say, I love you. I love you even though this happened, and nothing will ever change that. I think that begins to build a real shame-resilience in your child. They know that even if they do things that are very wrong, they can never lose that relationship with you. I think that’s one of the most powerful things we offer our children is our relationship with them.

34:27 - There Is Hope for Parents

Matt Tully
Speak to the parent listening right now who, for whatever reason—and there are so many reasons that we struggle with shame—they are feeling ashamed. They’re feeling this burden, this weight, that goes beyond guilt, that does feel paralyzing to them sometimes. They can see how it affects the way that they interact with their kids and their spouse and others. What word of encouragement would you offer to that person?

Heather Nelson
I think what I would say, first of all, is that you’re not alone. You may feel like you’re very alone, but I guarantee you there’s someone maybe very close to you who feels the same way. I think the hope is that if you’re willing to be honest with someone who seems safe and share with them, I’m feeling really ashamed of the way that I’ve been parenting or, I just feel really stuck, I think you will find that you aren’t alone. I think you’ll find that the parents around you have experienced that, have felt that (if they’re being honest). And even if they haven’t, they’re probably willing to enter into where you are and hear about it with you. Maybe there’s no one that you can think about in your life who you can identify as someone safe to be honest, and that would be a great time to seek counsel from a professional counselor or from a pastor, discipleship leader, small group leader—someone that you can be honest with and with the hope of finding some empathy for your struggle with shame. They will help you to know you’re not alone, you can be vulnerable, and there’s hope; there’s a way out. You could be feeling shame for the way that you’ve responded, and you knew nothing different. You don’t know how to parent differently than a more shameful way because it’s what is in your DNA. It’s what you grew up with. There’s a lot of resources and I think a lot of hope. Just realizing and recognizing the shame, that’s the biggest first step. For so many parents, I think we can just go through life and go through parenting not even giving a second thought to even asking the question. So if you’re feeling guilty—I shouldn’t say guilty—if you’re feeling shame right now and you can identify that, then that is the hugest sign that there’s redemption at work in your heart even now.

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